Communication and the Digital Future with Dr. Colleen Shogan

Lindsay Chervinsky: How does communication influence the way we lead and are led? From presidential libraries to the evolving world of digital archives, our guest today will reveal how effective leaders convey their vision. We're excited to welcome Dr. Colleen Shogan, the director of the National Archives and Records Administration. Dr. Shogan exemplifies the ability to clearly articulate a vision, inspire a large team, and navigate the intricate challenges of digital transformation.

Welcome to Leadership and Legacy, Conversations at the George Washington Presidential Library. I'm Dr. Lindsay Chervinsky, Executive Director of the George Washington Presidential Library at Mount Vernon. In this podcast series, we talk with leaders from across the nation about their growth, challenges, and innovative approaches that made them the leaders that they are today.

 The first six conversations, which took place between August 2023 and March 2024, were led by our former Executive Director, Dr. Patrick Spero. In the spirit of George Washington's leadership, this series will feature the perspective of leaders from across industries and fields. As such, the thoughts expressed in this podcast are solely the views of our guests and do not reflect the opinions of the Mount Vernon Ladies’ Association.

Lindsay Chervinsky: In this episode, we'll explore how Dr. Shogan integrates strategic communication into her role, her commitment to a user centered approach, and the impact of historical figures like George Washington on her leadership philosophy. As the leader of the National Archives and Records Administration, overseeing 15 presidential libraries and more than 13 billion records, Colleen will share the communication principles that help her navigate the complexities of managing both traditional and digital archives.

Colleen Shogan: Even if you are setting high expectations or you're delivering a message, the people initially aren't that excited to hear or aren't that wild about, the clearer and the more direct you are in those, in those communications the better off you will be.

Lindsay Chervinsky: And now, our host, Dr. Patrick Spero, former Executive Director of the George Washington Presidential Library at Mount Vernon.

Patrick Spero: Well, Colleen, it's great to be here today. I'm so thrilled to have a conversation about the Archives, their role in American society, but also what it means to be the leader of an institution like this.

So, I'd like to begin with something that sounds like a very simple question, and that is, if you were teaching a course let's say it's an English course, for people that are learning the language, and you had “leadership” as a word to explain to the class, how would you define it?

Colleen Shogan: That's a great question, and I don't think I've ever heard it articulated in that way, but I think leadership is really motivation and persuasion.

And that can mean motivating and persuading a small group of individuals or like the situation that I'm in right now as the head of the National Archives. We have 2,600 people that work at the National Archives, but it's about articulating a vision and motivating or persuading others about that vision.

Patrick Spero: That's great. And I want to ask you about being the National Archivist and what leadership means for someone in your position. Do you think that the challenges you face are universal or are there things that are unique to being an archivist?

Colleen Shogan: I think the answer is both. There are challenges that are universal, I think, to all federal government agency heads.

One general challenge is resources, and we have a little bit of an uneven budgetary process in the United States right now, and as a result, you have to be able to manage through those types of challenges and be able to try to figure out what your budgetary priorities are. That would be to any agency leader.

Here at the National Archives, we're in a really interesting transformative moment because we are moving from a paper based or analog archive, into an era, not right now, not today, but in the very near future, in which we will be a predominantly digital archive for the United States. And we need to use this time period to be able to create the infrastructure for the National Archives to execute that transformation.

Patrick Spero: Yes, this born digital future is both I think a, a great challenge something that is really exciting, but also daunting and I can only imagine how daunting it is for someone in your position where the size of the data and the different types of data and all the various restrictions that may be on it, it may have a period of time—how are you trying to navigate that?

Colleen Shogan: What we're doing is that we are starting to plan for the future—thankfully because of advances in technology, the storage of electronic or born digital records probably won't be as big of a problem for us because digital storage has, the technology behind digital storage has moved forward and transformed itself so much in the past five to ten years.

But what are real specific challenges is creating the applications for which our users will then be able to access those billions and billions of digital records that will come our way. And we haven't built that structure yet, but we're going to need to build it.

Patrick Spero: And I'm going to ask you the question that probably everybody else has asked you. Is AI going to help us with this?

Colleen Shogan: Absolutely. In fact, we are already using artificial intelligence in test cases and we will start using it more aggressively, hopefully to help us with things like freedom of information act requests, also for constructing useful metadata and more accurate metadata for those digital records.

Patrick Spero: So for the political scientist or the historian of the future that wants to research a presidential administration that was in the 21st century. What's their research experience going to be like?

Colleen Shogan: It will probably be mostly an online experience. But that doesn't mean that you're going to be on your own. In other words, that you're just going to be able to interface with the application that we build, and there won't be any useful help for you. We are moving to have our archivists online, they will be able to consult with you, just like if you would walk into a research room today.

And you would consult with an archivist or a librarian that will be available to you in an online format. In fact, that already happens today, but we are going to have to move that way to provide additional resources as the experience moves from an in-person research experience to a predominantly online one.

Patrick Spero: Yeah. So. The National Archives, what do you see as their role in American society? What's its—how should Americans think about this institution?

Colleen Shogan: I, the way that I talk about it, our, our mission is to preserve, protect, and share our nation's records. So that's, that's our mission. But for, as far as our purpose or why we exist.

We exist because in a democracy, you, you need records for things like accountability and legitimacy and transparency. And if you don't have those records, then you cannot have accountability. You cannot have legitimacy. And if you don't have those principles in a democracy, then your, your democracy really doesn't exist.

So the way that I explain it as a political scientist is that the National Archives is essential for a strong democracy.

Patrick Spero: And how do you see your own role beyond the institution itself? What is your role as this figure in American society?

Colleen Shogan: Right. I mean—so my, my role obviously is to, to lead the agency on a day to day basis.

But you know, in addition to that, I'm also a spokesperson for American history and the importance of understanding American history, the importance of civics education, the importance of understanding our government and how it functions. So in addition to the day to day operations of making sure the National Archives operates efficiently and effectively, I also try to be out in the public as much as possible to go out to, you know, large city public libraries, to go out into university settings.

And talk about the mission of the National Archives and why I think it's important that all kids learn American history and learn the basics of American government.

Patrick Spero: Now, how many National Archive locations are there around the country?

Colleen Shogan: There's actually 42 different facilities across the United States.

Some of those facilities are colocated with each other. But it's all across the United States. People think that we're just in Washington, D. C., where, of course, the Declaration, the Constitution, and the Bill of Rights are located. That's our, our headquarters. That's our historic building. But we have locations all across the United States, both archival operations and presidential libraries.

Patrick Spero: And when were the National Archives actually founded?

Colleen Shogan: In the 1930s under Franklin Roosevelt and he was also the one that helped to construct this building and the building was, was completed under his tenure.

Patrick Spero: So before that period, what happened to all the government documents?

Colleen Shogan: Unfortunately what happened was, I mean, this is the reason why Roosevelt was really concerned, because each of the agencies and departments were in charge of their records and their papers and he had caught wind of the fact that a lot of these records were degrading rapidly, they weren't being attended to. They were stuck in, in attics and basements and, and obviously being subject to less than ideal conditions.

And so Roosevelt figured out that this was something that hadn't been created in the United States thus far. There was the Library of Congress, but the Library of Congress is different because they do not collect government records.

And he realized very quickly that this institution was needed in the United States.

Patrick Spero: Now, you mentioned the presidential library system, which was also Roosevelt, and I believe that Hoover’s was the first one. Can you talk a little bit more about the presidential library system and NARA's role in those, but also how they function, you know, not just, they're not just a government institution, they actually have partnerships as well.

Colleen Shogan: That's correct. So we have 15 presidential libraries across the United States, and, and you're correct, Franklin Roosevelt created the presidential library system, but then Hoover wanted in on it, so he very graciously, they, they included President Hoover as well, and they are National Archives facilities and locations.

So presidential records are one of two types of records that we have here at the National Archives. We have federal records, which are agency records, like from the Department of State, or the Department of Defense, or the Department of Commerce. But then we also have presidential records, which are housed at our presidential libraries.

And they are terrific repositories for understanding a particular presidency, understanding that era of American history, and also, once again, a really important place for kids to go to learn something about the history of the presidency and how the presidency operates within a constitutional system.

And you're right. We, we operate these in conjunction with presidential foundations at all of those locations. And we wouldn't be able to do all of the outreach and programming and exhibitions without the support of presidential foundations.

Patrick Spero: Now you are in charge of this remarkable institution, and I'd love to hear more about your path to this place because it may be—looking at your biography, it might not be what you set out to do when you graduated college or became a university professor.

So, I'd love to go back in time a little bit. Let's go to 1997 when you graduated college. When you were, you know, fresh out of undergraduate, what did you want to do?

Colleen Shogan: Well, I, I was lucky in that when I was an undergraduate pretty early on, I discovered that I loved studying political science. I loved studying political theory, political philosophy, history of American political thought, the intersection of American history and politics. And I decided that I wanted to pursue a Ph.D in political science. And so after undergraduate, I went directly into graduate school.

I went to Yale University, and I was really lucky to be able to study with a prominent political scientist named Stephen Skowronek, who has written one of the most influential books on the American presidency. And I, I went to Yale with the idea that I would be in academia for most likely the remainder of my career, my entire career. And all of my energy and all of my work was really geared towards that. After finishing up my PhD, I was lucky enough that I got a tenure track job at George Mason University in Fairfax, Virginia, which is right outside of Washington, D.C., you know, right in my area, right in my wheelhouse, teaching American politics, the presidency, women in politics, and I really had a, a terrific experience at George Mason, and once again, I thought, that most likely, this was such a great job that I would, I would most likely stay at George Mason for the rest of, of my career.

After about four years, I realized the one thing that was a deficiency in my career was that I had went right from undergraduate to graduate school and I had never taken time really to work in government. I had never taken even time to intern in any substantial way in government. And a lot of the students that I had at George Mason being right outside of Washington, D.C., they had worked in government or they had interned at the White House or on Capitol Hill.

And as a result, I decided to apply for a fellowship with the American Political Science Association to go to work on Capitol Hill for a year. And I got the fellowship and I, I went to work in Congress. And once again, with the idea that I would be there for a year, come back and then, you know really stand for tenure because I had satisfied all the requirements for tenure on the research side.

So I was, you know, I was in good shape. And I when I got to Capitol Hill, that was really a transformative moment in my career. And some people just have these moments where—I really enjoyed being an academic, I liked research, and I liked writing, and I liked teaching, and I liked students, both graduate students and undergraduate students, but when I got to Capitol Hill, I kind of think I knew within the first couple months that this was just, this was where I was supposed to be.

I really enjoyed it. I liked working in an office. I liked working as part of a team. I liked the fact that I could write memos and, you know, after, you know, one or two people reviewed them, that they were in the hands of my boss, who was, you know, a pretty powerful United States Senator. And I had a feeling of efficacy, I think, with my life that I had never really felt before.

And what happened was that at the end of the year, my boss, really liked me and offered me a job to stay on his staff in the Senate, and I had to make a decision about whether I was going to go back and return to George Mason or if I was going to stay in the Senate. And I decided that I was going to stay in the Senate and a lot of people thought I was really crazy at the time because I walked away from a job that was a tenure track job.

Like I said, I was pretty confident that I was going to get tenure. So that's a guaranteed position for life into something as precarious as working in the United States Senate where, you know, day to day your jobs not necessarily guaranteed and certainly not election to election but I think it was, it was absolutely the best decision that I could have made because it really catapulted me then on to my career.

I went to work at the Library of Congress at the Congressional Research Service, then in the senior management at the Library of Congress for many years then on to the White House Historical Association, as the senior vice president there, and then on to the National Archives.

Patrick Spero: That's fascinating. And I want to ask you about various parts of, of it and, so your, your research, what was it on?

Colleen Shogan: When I was at George Mason I wrote a lot on presidential leadership. Presidential rhetoric was really my sub—my sub area of specialty. So I wrote a book on presidential rhetoric and wrote a lot of other research articles on presidential rhetoric. I also had an interest in women in politics, where I published a few articles in that area as well.

Patrick Spero: So do you find that your research helped you when you entered this different field? Particularly now that you are in a position of leadership, where a lot of people are listening to your rhetoric.

Colleen Shogan: Yeah, that's right. Well, I'm very attuned to any speech that I give or anything that I do publicly.

And I will take, I have to in this position now, take drafts of speeches because I don't have the time to sit down and write everything that I'm going to speak, but I do edit almost everything that I speak so that it's in my own voice and I understand the basics of, of communication and rhetoric in, in that way.

But in general, yes, I mean, you know, being a researcher helps you immensely, I think, in Washington, D.C. because you understand how to read carefully, write carefully. At times, my background in statistics and quantitative analysis were really helpful at different moments when I was analyzing different policy proposals.

So I could have never gotten to where I am today without my PhD in political science. I'm so happy that that's how I started my career.

Patrick Spero: Yeah. What, what lessons did you learn about presidential rhetoric in, in your own study? What was effective, or what are some of the errors that people have made in the past?

Colleen Shogan: The biggest thing that I wrote about was that presidents have to choose their words carefully to meet the political strategy of the time. And when you found presidents who wanted to simply articulate their rhetoric in a way that was more emotionally based or something that they truly believed rather than meeting the political strategies at the time, at the moments, the exigencies of the time.

That's actually a lot of times when rhetoric falls flat. So I really, it was American political development type of thesis. So looking at the large circumstances surrounding choices when it comes to speech.

Patrick Spero: Now, as a teacher were there any lessons in the classroom that you've found you've applied to managing people or even just being a spokesperson for the National Archives?

Colleen Shogan: Well, I think it's important when you're in the classroom, it's important to be a pretty-- I watch people's body language a lot, so you can kind of watch your students to figure out if they're listening. Or if they're not listening or what the reaction is to a particular lecture, whether it resonated or it didn't.

And then the other thing that's really important as a leader is also to listen. I mean, it's important to listen to your students because they will tell you or they will articulate when they don't understand something or when you haven't explained a concept fully. But you can only change that and improve that if you actually listen to them.

And the same thing as a leader you can't always be talking all the time. You also have to also open your ears and listen to the people that report to you or the people who work in your organization, what they're saying.

Patrick Spero: And now as a National Archivist you have had to go through a confirmation process, and a whole bunch of other things as a political appointment, which is probably different from your previous experiences.

Is there anything you learned through that process?

Colleen Shogan: Well, you know, perseverance is important. The confirmation process, the appointment, nomination, and confirmation process is very difficult these days in Congress. And it's not unique to me. So you know, perseverance and, and seeing it through is, is very, very important.

And also just I think the belief that you can actually do this job and that you are in fact the best person. To do this job because if you don't believe that—in yourself, then that's gonna translate in all kinds of things, whenever you're, you're talking to senators privately before your nomination hearing, during the nomination hearing itself.

You truly have to believe that, and you have to put the hard work in to—for preparation to get you through the process as well.

Patrick Spero: Yeah, it has to be kind of surreal. As somebody who has studied politics, has probably observed confirmation hearings. You have a perspective as an outsider and understanding what's happening and then going through it yourself?

Colleen Shogan: Absolutely. And I understood every step of the way what was happening to me. Because—mostly because I had sat on the other side of the dais, and I had worked many confirmation hearings for my boss in several different committees. So I’d sat through it a lot. So I knew the rhythm of it, I actually could anticipate what the questions were going to be.

It's still difficult when it's actually happening to you but it, it does help you process it. And it also helped me, I think some people that go through the process, they personalize it so much. And so the one side of your brain, you're a human, so you definitely have emotions about that. When someone says something about you that you don't—ؙyou know isn't true or you're being attacked.

But then on the rational side of my brain, it was also going through, I was sitting there saying, oh, this is, you know, this is why he's doing this. Because you just, I understand, have a better understanding about the macro political situation and what's actually happening.

Patrick Spero: You know, it's a great testament to why studying the past can be really useful to everybody today and that the humanities still matter.

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Patrick Spero: So you're relatively new in your new role. Have you learned anything that unexpected or something that surprised you about either the position or the archives themselves?

Colleen Shogan: I think the sheer volume of the amount of records that we have here. You can read this as much as you want, but 13 and a half billion pages of paper records that we have here And you might just be able to read that and you say, well, that's a lot.

I mean, actually, we don't have the capacity in our own brains to understand what that is. You know, when you start getting into the billions numbers, and until you actually see it, right? So this is what a lot of my travels have been to go around to our various presidential libraries and archival sites, and to be able to understand what our archivists and archivist technicians are doing in order to help process and make those records available to as many Americans as possible.

And that sheer volume does—is intimidating at times, because I've worked at the Library of Congress for over a decade, and I, I toured all of our storage facilities at the Library of Congress, which are vast. Most of them exist in, in Maryland, but they are nothing compared to what I've seen at the National Archives just because of the sheer volume of the number of records that we have here.

Patrick Spero: And you also have a, a large staff. I mean, how many people dispersed around the country and as the, as the leader? How do you connect with a, such a dispersed organization?

Colleen Shogan: So it's 2,600 people that are all across the United States, and obviously I can't bring them all together in Washington, D.C. at any one period of time. That's just not feasible. So we do a, a lot of our meetings online. We do very regularly. We do all staff—all staff communications and all staff town meetings where I'm able to speak and we have different various speakers talking about different initiatives and programs that are going on or decisions that have been made.

And then I really think that there's no replication for actually going out to those sites. And when I go out to a site, I don't just tour the site and meet people along the way. I do an hour, hour and a half, a town hall meeting with all the staff that work at that particular facility and site. And I only speak for about five or 10 minutes.

They've heard me, you know, enough. I want to hear from them. I want to hear their comments and answer their questions. And many times we'll go, yeah, even over, you know, an hour, we'll go into 90 minutes approaching two hours because staff will have so many questions for me. And it ends up being more of a dialogue back and forth.

And I think out of everything that I do on any given trip, those staff meetings that I do in person are the most important of that given trip.

Patrick Spero: Yeah, and that brings up one of the questions I have for most of the people I've interviewed, that is what are some of the most effective ways of being a leader when it comes to staff? And I'm hearing a lot about connection and communication but we have folks who are going to be listening to this they are either in a management position or aspire to be in a management position. So I don't know if you have some kind of bullet points on things that you think are the most effective ways to motivate, as you mentioned in your first answer, motivate staff.

Colleen Shogan: Mm hmm. Well, I think it's important to be very clear with, with staff. So where you get into trouble when you're a manager or supervisor is if you are not clear. If you—even if your body language says one thing, and your words are saying another thing. I try to be very plain spoken and very direct with even people that report to me today as well as when I started out being a manager or supervisor many years ago at the Library of Congress.

And I think that even if you are setting high expectations or you're delivering a message, that people initially aren't that excited to hear or aren't that wild about, the clearer and the more direct you are in those, in those communications the better off you will be. I think we're—sometimes managers and supervisors, especially when they're starting out, they are understandably nervous about delivering, you might say, bad news, difficult news, things that people don't necessarily want to hear for one reason or the other.

And so they kind of, they sugarcoat it a little bit or, or they're, they might be a little bit soft in how they're delivering the message. That is always going to be—end up being more problematic for you in the long run then in, in the short run.

Same thing, this is this is a great lesson that applies to classroom experience as well. The more direct you are with the students you are teaching, the more forthright and honest you are with them about expectations, grading, or assignments the better off you are, you're going to be throughout the semester. And it's really the same thing to staff that you supervise or that you manage.

Patrick Spero: It actually reminds me of a little anecdote of my own career, which is that I taught at Williams and they had this evaluation for effective teaching and there was these two numbers at the bottom that were the only ones that really mattered—but there were—they were graded on 27 different—and they were able to connect what was the most likely thing to have a high score at the bottom, a good score at the bottom, to one of those other 20 odd rubrics in which they were evaluated by the students.

And ease of grading was one of them, but that wasn't it, it was actually clarity. And that was something, too, that I learned, that, you know, clarity is so important. And you talked about delivering bad messages. What's the worst one you've had to deliver?

Colleen Shogan: Oh, I mean, gosh, the worst one that I've had to deliver, well, I mean, when I was, I lived through sequestration at the Library of Congress, you know, budgetary sequestration.

And we, you know, unfortunately at that time had to deliver news that everybody was taking furlough days because the Library of Congress had to give everyone, I think it was three furlough days in order to meet budget because of the influence of sequestration. And that was not good news to have to deliver because nobody wants to take three days without pay that they weren't necessarily planning for.

I mean, in other instances, I've had to, you know, we've had to, I've had to terminate people, which is really not the most pleasant thing that that you can do or explain that, you know, the inspector general has investigated you and has found that you've been doing these things that you really shouldn't be doing.

Those are always awkward conversations, but once again, delivering it, you know, practicing it in that case, which is, you know, a little bit uncomfortable for everyone. Even practicing it once or twice in the mirror or with someone else before you go in and sit down with a person, that's very, very helpful.

And if you, you do that, then you'll, you'll find that you'll be better prepared for the discussion.

Patrick Spero: Yeah. So no one's perfect. Any mistakes that you've made that have also proved very useful for you?

Colleen Shogan: Sure. I think that in my career, you know, certainly when I was starting out in management and supervision and especially even whenever I started to manage and supervise larger groups of people, so not just a small team of 10 or 12, but, you know, 70, 80 people, and then up from there.

You know, I was always a really hard worker, but I was also probably reactive to a lot of things. So something would come up to me about a problem that we had and my immediate reaction would be to solve that problem really, really quickly.

And I, so that's more of a reactive leadership posture. And I think as I became more comfortable as a leader, and learned more, I was exposed to some good leaders, I learned that I didn't have to be so quick to pull the trigger that I could be more—in most situations. I mean, obviously, if it's the life, health, or safety of someone, you have to be very quick, but that's usually not what's, what's happening in day to day management, things like the federal government in what I was doing.

It actually is much, much better to take a take a moment and evaluate the situation, even if it makes you upset or you have an emotional response to it, get those emotions under control and think about it. And then come up with a plan for action. And when I started taking, actually, deliberately being slower in how I reacted to situations, I found that my leadership got better.

Patrick Spero: That's great. So now I want to ask you a few questions about influences on your own career. And as somebody who's studied the past and presidents and political leaders. Are there figures that loom large for you?

Colleen Shogan: Mm hmm. Well, I, I have to say this, and I'm not just trying to, to cozy up to you, but I mean, George Washington's been a huge influence in my life.

I wrote my undergraduate senior thesis in political science on George Washington and his influences on the establishment of the presidency. And Washington's leadership has always inspired me because Washington, I mean, this is where a lot of this comes into play, that I just spoke about, you know, Washington was very quick to anger naturally, he was an energetic guy and he had to really work hard to figure out how to get some of that spiritedness under control, and I think over time, Washington certainly became more of a reflective leader, which was greatly influential.

I also just, I don't think that we would have our constitutional democracy today that we have unless—save George Washington. Because imagine the influence, imagine the pressure on him after winning the Revolutionary War, which nobody really necessarily expected to happen, and everywhere all around you, there's kings, and that was—and monarchies, and autocracy, and that is the accepted mode of government, and Washington certainly could have become a benevolent king, and there were people that wanted him to become a benevolent king.

And he rejected all of that and retires back to Mount Vernon for a period of time before he becomes president. And I just think that goes against the entire grain of what he would have known about in Western—in Western culture and Western history. Yet he decided to chart his own path, which is just extraordinary.

Patrick Spero: Yeah, now, as somebody that was a researcher, well, still has a toe in that water: how, how have you, I mean, having gotten a PhD, gone straight from undergraduate, has, have you left that part of your life behind, or do you still stay, you know, attuned to what's happening in your field, or?

Colleen Shogan: I try to. So I am going to go to a presidency conference in April, I'm going to actually be on in the conference. I'm going to do a lunchtime chat, but I'm going to get to attend the entire day. And I'm going to listen to a bunch of colleagues and, and, and scholars that I know talk about the presidency and executive politics for the day, which I think is going to be extraordinarily important.

At the White House Historical Association, I spent a lot of time writing. So that was my most recent position, so I was able to do a lot of that for the better part of, of three years. And that was terrific. And there are times here that I'm, I'm able to engage in, in, in that type of work. I get invited to write short essays. For publications at certain—at certain points in time.

And I just have to be careful about my workload before I accept those things. But if I'm, I'm careful, then I can carve out the time in, in which to be able to, to write those things and really enjoy it.

Patrick Spero: Has your view of the presidency changed at all? Having now first been on the Capitol Hill, and then now with White House Historical Association, now really at the, at a senior level in the government.

Colleen Shogan: Mm hmm. Well, I think that, you know, when I first started out as a scholar, I had a very presidency centric view of our government. I guess that makes sense because that's what I studied, and that's what my dissertation was on, and that was the course that I was teaching. But, you know, for many, many years, I was on Capitol Hill, working in the Senate, but then I worked at the Library of Congress for well over a decade.

So I think it was about 14 years spent working on Capitol Hill. And that was really important because it taught me about the importance of the legislative branch, that Congress is the first branch of government. And so now I have a much more balanced view about the tension between those two institutions, the separation of powers, and how that all works out.

So I don't think I, I, I had that before I worked on Capitol Hill, so I think that was really important.

Patrick Spero: Yes. One of my last questions. I, of course, love Washington being one of your inspirations—you know, an influence, but are were there other people that influenced you that perhaps we don't know, names we don't know, but nonetheless were really influential in in your own development?

Colleen Shogan: Sure. I mean gosh I had a really great boss in the Senate he, a legislative director, his name was Joe Goffman, and he was really influential to me once again about how to be a thoughtful leader in, in that type of environment, in a really high-pressure environment. But that doesn't mean that you, you have to not think things through and be deliberative. I had a really good boss also in the Senate. His name was Fred Downey and he was a former Army colonel and he did the defense portfolio in the office where I worked and he taught me a lot about how the Senate operates.

And also he was very big about, you know, you don't always have to work, you know, slow yourself down, you be, be, you know don't be so eager, you know, you don't have to do everything in, in, in the first hour of the day, you know, we've got eight hours, nine hours here in a day. He was, he was a terrific supervisor and, and a great role model for me.

I've been lucky. I've, I've interacted with some really fantastic people. Carla Hayden, who is the Librarian of Congress, I was able to see how she single handedly transformed that institution. Now, it took her a few years to be able to do that, but she brought her own vision to that institution and her predecessor, who I also knew, James Billington, I had been there for a very long time.

And so the institution was on a particular path. And Dr. Hayden had a, a, a view that was, that was adjacent to that view, but it had her own preferences as a public librarian coming to play. And she really, she also persevered. She really stuck with it. And it takes a while to be able to shape an institution.

And she was never daunted by that, which is very inspiring. And then the woman that I worked alongside at the Women's Suffrage Centennial Commission, I was the vice chair of the commission but the chair of the commission was a woman named Susan Combs, who was a presidential appointee in, under President Trump.

She was the assistant secretary of the interior for budget. And before that, Susan had been the, the comptroller in the state of Texas. And Susan was—I was just so honored to work alongside Susan because she kept the commission. We took a very bipartisan view of everything that we did. She included me in all the decisions.

She didn't have to as the chair, but she included me in every decision as the vice chair and she brought such an energy, enthusiasm, to the hundredth anniversary of the 19th amendment. I really think fondly of my time working with Susan. So, all of those people have been very influential in my life. Plus, many others.

Patrick Spero: Yeah, and that's a great way to segue to the kind of the last question I want to ask you, which is about the future of the National Archives. And you saw Carla Hayden, a new librarian of Congress, take over that institution. So, when you think about the future of the National Archives, what do you want to see as your legacy?

Colleen Shogan: We're on a good path and track to becoming a more user centered institution. I was a user of the National Archives as a researcher, and that's the background and experience that I bring to the position. So I want to be able to transform both our in person experiences at museums that we have across the United States and our presidential libraries, our museum here in Washington, D.C., our in person researcher experience, as well as our online digital researcher experience, our, our catalog, for example. So we're going to be approaching a lot of our challenges and problems from the viewpoint of our, our users and our visitors and figuring out how we can make sure that we provide the best possible interaction and experiences with American history as, as we can.

Patrick Spero: What are some of the challenges you see from getting from A to B? 

Colleen Shogan: Well, like, like I said before, resources is certainly a challenge, you can't do everything all at once and so you have to make choices and strategic decisions. So you might say I want to do these 10 initiatives this year, which would help me get from A to B, but I only have money to really do three.

So you have to make very, very hard decisions, and you have to have a good senior leadership team that can have—can engage in those discussions, and so we can make the educated decisions that will further our strategic priorities as much as we can with the resources that we have.

And then also some of it—but we're starting to solve this—is getting the information and data from our users, to find out exactly what we should be doing. And that hasn't been something that has previously been done in the past at the National Archives, but we are doing that now, surveying users of our online catalog about their online experiences, and then also going directly to our researchers that come into our research rooms all across the country, surveying them, finding out what works and what needs to be improved.

Patrick Spero: Yeah. One of the challenges that I've heard about existing in, in other libraries and, and archives is going back to what you talked about earlier, the digital future and at the same time, staff expertise and knowledge and trying to get the staff aligned with the digital future and their own skillset.

So for a 2,600 person operation, I mean, what are some of the ways that you're going to address that challenge?

Colleen Shogan: We can do that in partially through training. But we also have to be realistic about it and understand that we need to, and this comes again to the priorities, we need to set aside funding so that we can also bring on board the expertise that we don't have right now.

And there are people being trained right now to be digital librarians and to be digital archivists in library schools and information schools all across the country. And they bring that particular skill set to the table, and we are going to have to make hard choices to be able to find the funding so that we can start to build that new repository of staff expertise for the future.

Patrick Spero: Yeah. And my last question is, for anybody listening out there: what is the one thing you want them to know about the National Archives?

Colleen Shogan: Oh, that we're open for business and they should come and visit us if you can in person. And if you can't, to visit our website and to engage with us as much as you can online because these are your records.

We hold them in trust for you at the National Archives. But the records of the United States belong to the citizens, and we are here to provide you with the access to those materials.

Patrick Spero: Yeah, and on a personal level, I just can't tell you how transformative Founders Online is. So for those listening, George Washington's papers, but also all the other founders: the National Archives hosts a remarkable resource that has all of those transcribed, keyword searchable. They're interlinked with each other. It is just an absolutely, it is a national treasure in a digital format.

Colleen Shogan: It is. As a researcher, any time where I've, I've heard of a letter or heard of this and you can go in Founders Online and you can immediately find it.

It's, it's a, it's a great resource.

Patrick Spero: Great. Well, thank you, Colleen.

Colleen Shogan: Thank you.

Lindsay Chervinsky: Communication is a cornerstone of effective leadership, and as Colleen Shogan illustrated today, clear and impactful communication is essential for guiding institutions through change. In our rapidly evolving technological landscape, it is crucial for leaders to adeptly manage and communicate transformations within their organizations.

 We're grateful for the opportunity to delve into Colleen's approach to visionary leadership, digital transformation, and the vital role of effective communication. Her insights into leading the National Archives, embracing new technologies, and improving user experiences reveal the complexities and demands of guiding a major institution.

Next time, what does it mean to lead in a democracy? And what exactly is the civic bargain? Historian and consultant Brooke Manville shares lessons learned from a life in leadership.

Brook Manville: And the idea is that we're trying to define democracy in a very simple to understand way. So there's millions of, often very nuanced discussions of what democracy is. We said, it's basically, people living and working together with no boss except one another,

Lindsay Chervinsky: Leadership and Legacy, Conversations at the George Washington Presidential Library is a production of the Mount Vernon Ladies’ Association. This podcast is hosted by Dr. Patrick Spero and Dr. Lindsay Chervinsky. Our executive producers are Dr. Anne Fertig and Heather Soubra. We would like to thank today's guest, Colleen Shogan

To learn more about Washington's leadership example or to find out how you can bring your team to the George Washington Presidential Library, go to www. gwleadershipinstitute.org. Or, to find more great podcasts from Mount Vernon, go to www.georgewashingtonpodcast.com.