Leading in Times of Crisis with Michelle Korsmo

[00:00:00] Lindsay Chervinsky: What does it take to be a leader today? And how can the lives of past leaders help us face our current challenges? Welcome to Leadership and Legacy, Conversations at the George Washington Presidential Library at Mount Vernon. I'm Dr. Lindsay Chervinsky, head of the library. In this podcast series, we talk with experts about leadership and history, how studying our past helps us understand our current moment, and how we can apply lessons from their stories to our lives.

Today I'm joined by Michelle Korsmo. She is President and Chief Executive Officer of the National Restaurant Association and CEO of the National Restaurant Association Education Foundation. Her job is to represent the restaurant industry, their members, and 52 state association partners. Which is no easy feat, providing value to that many diverse and potentially disagreeing members. Prior to this job, she was the president and CEO of the Wine and Spirits Wholesalers of America during the COVID 19 pandemic and the head of the American Land Title Association during the 2008 housing crisis. Talk about leading through difficult moments.

Lastly, she worked in the Department of Labor and ran her own business. So basically, she's been on every side of the government policy business equation, which is incredibly rare experience. She has also been a wonderful supporter of Mount Vernon, and critically is a fabulous student of history.

Our conversation about historic leaders and their value to leaders today was such a joy and is exactly the kind of wisdom we are trying to share at the George Washington Presidential Library and on this podcast.

Lindsay Chervinsky: Well, thank you so much for being here. This is really fun. I'm so glad that we are having this chance to talk.

And I would love for you to share a little bit about your journey with the audience because it's a really interesting one and you've worked in a lot of different industries.

[00:01:47] Michelle Korsmo: Thank you. It's so nice to be here. I'm excited to have this conversation. It has been an interesting journey. I grew up on a farm in North Dakota, and it's funny to think about a farm girl who knows how to drive tractor and pick mustard and

pick rocks, which is something farm kids would understand, um, in Washington doing the work that I'm doing in this role on behalf of restaurant operators everywhere. So my path was one where I was always kind of active and engaged in politics. I remember doing the Weekly Reader poll in elementary school, voting for president and being very engaged with my classmates and that never really left.

And so I worked in North Dakota as a state lobbyist, I worked for associations, I had a terrific boss who ran an association management company, and we did lobbying for some associations in the state, and then that led me to starting my own business doing political advocacy, which eventually led me to Washington DC, which was absolutely fabulous.

I came to work in the George W. Bush administration and had the great privilege of working for Elaine Chao at the U. S. Department of Labor. And really learned so much from her, that time working closely with her was really invaluable in my leadership development. But then my Washington journey continued, you know, I think there's so many of us that come to D C and we think it's going to be a short time and we wind up staying, but if you've got Potomac fever, you've got Potomac fever. And it's interesting because when I first was offered a job working in a trade association, I thought, well, that's kind of a company town and this is a different division of the company and I should learn this division.

And I was hooked. Trade associations really became a place where I could kind of combine all of the things I loved about public policy and advocacy and making a difference for Americans who are living under the laws and regulations that are set in Washington. And associations are tremendously powerful in that space.

And so it's been a great journey.

[00:03:43] Lindsay Chervinsky: So you've done the business route yourself. You've done government. You've done the trade association, but I was not anticipating farm girl. So we have a fourth category there, which I love. That's fantastic. My family version was pick up sticks, not pick rocks, but go pick up sticks if you needed a task.

[00:03:58] Michelle Korsmo: Yeah. A little different, but we --

[00:04:00] Lindsay Chervinsky: -- We can talk about that later. I'm clearly not a farm girl. And I totally agree with you, you know, if you love DC, you love DC. It's not for everybody, but if you love it and know what it is, it makes a lot of sense to you.

Korsmo reminded me that there is not one type of leader, nor should one person always practice the same type of leadership.

She stressed the idea of emotional intelligence and bringing that to your current moment. This awareness is also called situational leadership, the idea that leaders need to be able to adapt their style to suit the moment, context, and the team they're working with.

So, one of the things that you talked about were moments where leadership for you came to the forefront or you learned.

And I'm wondering if we could start the conversation with how do you approach or think about leadership.

[00:04:49] Michelle Korsmo: So it's interesting, when I first started in real leadership roles, I didn't think about situational leadership, but I was certainly doing that. But if you think about Ken Blanchard, who's the father of situational leadership, has really written that book talking about how you have to be a different kind of leader in different moments and with different individuals.

And so when I think about my leadership journey, one of the things I know is I'm more deliberate about my situational leadership now than I was in the past. Before it was probably a little bit more intuitive in what does this situation need and how do I need to show up to help accomplish what we're trying to accomplish.

But now I think more deliberately about, okay, where are we trying to go and how are we going to get there? And so what can I do in this moment that helps facilitate us getting there?

[00:05:37] Lindsay Chervinsky: Is there a for instance you'd be comfortable sharing with us, like, what is a situation where you have to think in a particular way?

[00:05:44] Michelle Korsmo: So I think all of us probably have a natural place where we like to be as leaders. And I love to be a participatory leader. I want to get in and work alongside the team and create something new and amazing and figure out how to solve problems, come up with a new industry solution on how we talk about the value of working in the restaurant industry, for example.

But where I am now with the National Restaurant Association, our work is really implementing a new strategic plan. And of course when I'm in this point of explaining to our team and our stakeholders about the direction of where we're going as an organization, what's most important for us to accomplish in the next few years, I need to really be a lot more directive.

I need to be a lot more in that space of saying, this is clarity on what we want to achieve as an organization. And then this is how we're going to do that. And importantly, telling everybody, this is how you can be a part of that success.

[00:06:40] Lindsay Chervinsky: What I'm hearing you say is that these situations and the moments really require a lot of emotional intelligence.

It requires an ability to read the room, to read the people that you're working with, because of course not everyone is going to be motivated in the same way, and not every crisis is going to require the same solution. I'm wondering if you just want to reflect at all on the essentialness of emotional intelligence to leading in a way, because I don't know that we always prioritize that.

[00:07:06] Michelle Korsmo: I think that we do more and more because we understand how important that is. If we think about great leaders, often great leaders are diplomats. And I talk frequently about my job being one of diplomacy. And diplomacy is that emotional intelligence. It's reading the room, understanding the motivations of the other people that are part of your world.

What you need to do, what they want out of a situation, and then figuring out how to pull the levers so that everybody understands where they find success in that environment. So emotional intelligence, I don't think could ever be underestimated in terms of the value. I think the other part of emotional intelligence that's so important is people's self awareness.

What do I know about who I am? My capabilities, what I have to offer. And I think another kind of side of that coin in that emotional intelligence is really understanding how you may be holding yourself back and then pushing through that. So if you're thinking about great leaders. Most great leaders that we pay attention to have not let the things that they're afraid of hold themselves back.

And if we can use our own emotional intelligence on ourselves, and really push through in those places where you would say, maybe I don't have enough knowledge, maybe I'm not the right person, maybe I don't want to ask for help, and instead push through and say, I need help here, or I know. what we can do.

I've got this vision and together we're going to be able to accomplish great things, I think that's really a key place to bring emotional intelligence in.

[00:08:37] Lindsay Chervinsky: Thinking about various different leaders in the past or presidents, which of course is my focus and our focus here at the Presidential Library, when we think of the presidents that we typically associate as the greats, Abraham Lincoln, George Washington, FDR.

They weren't always the highest intellects. They often surrounded themselves with people who might have a, what we would consider to be more traditionally higher IQ, but they were incredibly astute about those around them and had a very high emotional intelligence.

[00:09:03] Michelle Korsmo: Right. And if we could talk about somebody that you know well from your research and writing, the Adams, right?

So I think the Adams. Both John Adams and John Quincy Adams, certainly high IQ, very intelligent individuals, but where would you put them on the emotional intelligence category?

[00:09:21] Lindsay Chervinsky: You know, it's so interesting, especially because of your self awareness point. I think they were highly self aware. Sometimes maybe too self-aware.

Mm-hmm . 'cause they were so incredibly critical, but they weren't always great at reading the room. And even if they read the room, they didn't necessarily care to change their actions based on what the room was telling them. So --

[00:09:41] Michelle Korsmo: Because they were holding themselves back? Or --

[00:09:43] Lindsay Chervinsky: Holding themselves back, or they both had this righteous indignation about being right, even if it meant they were being unpopular.

And sometimes that's great, because sometimes you do need someone who takes the honorable stance to say, no, this is the right thing, and we're going to do it anyway, even if it means I'm going to lose reelection. But that's not really how you build coalitions. And it's not really how you get things done, at least in Washington.

[00:10:05] Michelle Korsmo: It's not. But one of the things that I've always admired about both Adams presidencies is how much they're taking the long view, right? And so in that sense of they're doing the right thing, they're really taking the long view. And that's a balance for every leader, is you've got to make good long term decisions.

What's going to be better for us long term? I always say, what is future us going to be thankful that we did today? And I think they were always thinking about future us, always thinking about what, for our young republic, what they needed to do in their leadership roles. But I do think they also held themselves back.

[00:10:39] Lindsay Chervinsky: They did. You know, that brings up an interesting question. I'm wondering how you think about balancing it, which is that, long term vision sometimes is in conflict with short term popularity, but short term popularity is a commodity that is valuable if you're going to lead people and get things done. Mm hmm.

So how do you think about balancing those two things?

[00:10:59] Michelle Korsmo: Short term popularity is also fleeting. So when I think about that, I think about making sure that everybody understands why you're making the long term decisions that may not be so popular. We talk about this a lot in trade association work. So part of the trade association is bringing together businesses that have very different ideas about their business strategies and how they want to position themselves in the marketplace.

But when we come together and we're talking about setting public policy and what our policy positions are, we can't be in a position of thinking about what's in the best interest of one particular business model, one business strategy over another. And so we're talking about what's the best long term policy that creates an environment that allows for lots of competition, lots of new businesses to thrive in that environment.

And so when we're in those moments, and I've had many conversations in my various roles and trade associations with leaders of these companies about the importance of not doing something that they would want to do for their own company's interest in that moment, but talking about how the policy that we will support does create a better environment, a better economy, a better working space for them to succeed in the future.

So it may not be a short term win for their current business strategy, but it's a long term win for their business climate.

[00:12:19] Lindsay Chervinsky: Sounds to me like in moments that are difficult like those, what I heard you just say is that both transparency about why you're doing something, but then also communicating that clearly. Clear is kind in some ways and really essential to those moments.

[00:12:32] Michelle Korsmo: Yes. Very much so. And it's interesting when you think about roles of leaders, and many of your podcast guests have talked about this extensively, it always comes back to the importance of understanding what's the problem you're trying to solve, right? Really having a true understanding of what you're trying to accomplish in that moment, and then what that solution is, and providing clarity around that solution for everybody that's involved.

And it's constantly communicating clarity on, this is what we're trying to do, and this is why we're trying to do it. And then being very direct about the tactics and the steps that are needed to get there.

[00:13:03] Lindsay Chervinsky: You have dropped some real pearls of wisdom about leadership just in the few minutes we've been talking.

And I would love for you to talk a little bit about how you've learned those lessons, either through successes or sometimes I think failures are sometimes more educating for us or even, you know, how you were taught these things by other people that you found to be really inspirational.

[00:13:24] Michelle Korsmo: I would say my superpower is that I'm very curious, so I'm constantly paying attention to what's happening around me, I'm constantly paying attention to where I've done something that worked well and where I've made mistakes and course correcting, but I'm also seeking out new information and ideas and listening to podcasts is a fantastic way to get inspiration about problems that you're thinking through.

Books and history is always just a tremendous lesson. One of the things I do is if I'm in a big moment where I'm working on something fairly intense, I love to read biographies and I'll purposefully choose a biography of a leader that I believe has something to teach me and offer me in that moment, going back to situational leadership, based on the situation that that individual may be known for and the leadership style that individual has. If I can get into that book and kind of think about the lessons in that moment, I think it really helps me strengthen my leadership work.

[00:14:23] Lindsay Chervinsky: Korsmo pointed to the importance of role models in developing yourself as a leader.

Following up on our conversation about the Adamses, I was especially pleased to learn that she looks to the past for help in meeting current challenges. Finding inspiration and words of warning from biographies of famous leaders.

Listeners, you should note that I did not pay her to tell you to read history books, but what I'm hearing is that we should all be reading history books.

[00:14:48] Michelle Korsmo: We should all be reading history books.

[00:14:50] Lindsay Chervinsky: So who are some of the historic leaders that have been really helpful to you as you've been thinking about those big moments?

[00:14:55] Michelle Korsmo: It's interesting, when I think about, who I like to read in history. The only common theme, I would say, is how much I value the biography, really getting into the knowledge of the whole person.

And I've, like so many of us that have Potomac fever and love being involved in public policy, spent a lot of time with the Founders, just that whole set of individuals that together made this country what it is because of the work that they did, the leadership they showed in those moments and the places where they were positioned, I think is significant.

I mean, think about Franklin going to France and John Quincy Adams, obviously, going abroad and the work that he was doing, the important work that clearly President Washington, General Washington, was doing here in the colonies and eventually in the United States of America as leaders, establishing who we are as Americans, is great foundational work.

I also love to read biographies of business leaders. The common thread for me in biographies is the people that have unreasonable expectations. I always love to read about the people that say, we're going to do this thing that everybody else is telling them is impossible, because that's where you see that those unreasonable expectations actually lead to extraordinary results.

[00:16:17] Lindsay Chervinsky: What is the quote? If you shoot for the moon, even if you miss, you'll land among the stars. I probably butchered that, but I think that concept can be applied to business or can be applied to any sort of leadership, which is even if you don't get to your extreme goal, you're probably still going to get farther than you thought you'd be able to get if you set a more modest ambition.

[00:16:34] Michelle Korsmo: Absolutely. I've recently finished the Walter Isaacson biography of Steve Jobs, so I was a little late to the game.

[00:16:40] Lindsay Chervinsky: I did not think that was the one you were going to say.

[00:16:41] Michelle Korsmo: No, I know. Because everybody's read that a decade ago, I was a little late to the game in reading that biography. But it was the right thing for me to read at the time and thinking about how he really created that company and the unreasonableness in which he established how they were building the computer, the way that it needed to look, the fact that the inside needs to be beautiful.

Nobody's ever going to see it, but the inside is beautiful. So what does that do for his team, if he's telling his team that the inside and the beauty of the inside matters? In fact, it was so important to them that when they were creating, I can't remember if this is when he was at NeXT or if he was actually at Apple at the time.

They actually signed the inside of the computer and then sealed it up never to be, one of his signatures as well, is that he didn't want the consumer to be breaking into the computers and changing things around the way that the PC world loved to do that, which is why you have that Mac PC divide in the tech space.

But the pride of doing beautiful work where no one is ever going to see that work is something that I think is really motivating.

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[00:18:32] Lindsay Chervinsky: So you read about business leaders, you read about the Founders, which of course we applaud. You mentioned Elaine Chao.

[00:18:40] Michelle Korsmo: Yes.

[00:18:40] Lindsay Chervinsky: I would love to know who are the leaders that you've personally met that have really impacted you?

[00:18:46] Michelle Korsmo: I think that there are leaders at every stage of your life, again, if you're paying attention to what's around you.

And certainly my parents have been influential leaders to me, my dad as a business owner, farmer, but really a business owner. My mom as a doer, she is massively creative and really brought that creativity to my childhood in a meaningful way. And then I've had the privilege of working for a lot of really strong women.

When I was working in the North Dakota association management space, Dina Butcher was my boss and leader, a great leader in the state of North Dakota, strong woman, ran for statewide office, served in the state government, ran her own business, was an entrepreneur. That was a great thing. Nancy Pfotenhauer was another great individual that I worked for who was terrific, but Elaine Chao really head and shoulders above so many in terms of her vision for what can be done when serving the American people in a cabinet agency.

And the importance of really understanding that your time there is short and if you're going to make a difference, you need to be intense and focused on what you're trying to do. She was always really great at pulling in the career professionals that understood the regulatory environment, the department, the rules and regulations that the agency and the departments are there to serve and to implement, and then the political team that's there to bring the president's vision to life in a way that was really meaningful and created long lasting impact.

[00:20:24] Lindsay Chervinsky: There are three different threads I want to take from that question. So I'm going to try and remember all three to make sure we get to it. But what you just highlighted there, about government leadership, is a unique challenge that doesn't usually apply to business, which is that your time frame for getting things done is quite limited. Because even if you have four years of a presidential term, or even eight years, what you really actually have is like 18 months.

[00:20:47] Michelle Korsmo: Right.

[00:20:48] Lindsay Chervinsky: Because it takes a while for people to get into office, then there are elections, there's distractions, Congress is focused on other things. So how does that change how you thought about leadership, how you thought about getting things done? And how do you handle that very short timeline?

[00:21:02] Michelle Korsmo: I've thought about the fact that my childhood growing up on a farm actually positioned me really well for this because you have a limited growing season, especially in North Dakota.

[00:21:12] Lindsay Chervinsky: I was just going to say, that's a very short one.

[00:21:14] Michelle Korsmo: Winter's coming, right? Winter's coming. And when winter's coming, you're not going to grow a lot. And so you have to, well, first of all, you have to be able to get into the fields to get the fields ready and plant those crops as soon as you can, when the snow is gone and the fields have thawed and it's not too wet so that your tractors aren't going to get stuck.

And then you've got that growing season where, you know, your whole business is condensed into that probably six month period. And of course, you need to get those crops off at exactly the right time and hopefully before the snow comes, and winter sets in again. And so that cadence of you have a short time in which to get work done, I think was a good way to set me on a stage for you've got a short period of time in which to get work done.

And then you need to reset and focus and then come back and do it again. And that's the other thing that I think is so important when you think about leadership roles. It isn't a set it and forget it. Never are you in a situation where you can say, okay, I've set my strategy and we're good for the next five years.

We've just gone through a strategic planning process at the National Restaurant Association, and I separate our strategic planning into two different categories. We do the operational strategic planning that's longer term, I'm operating under a three year strategic plan, I don't like to go farther than that.

I think that if you go much farther than that, things change too much and you're going to need to adjust in the interim. So that's a three year operational plan. And then I look at the issues and the topics that are important to the industry, the things that we have to focus on in terms of where should we be moving the ball on behalf of our members on these issues so that we can help them be prepared for how the world is changing in the next five years.

And that's annual work. I pull the board together once a year where we have conversations about, what are the forces facing the industry? Where do we think the industry is going to be in the next five years? And then based off of that, what should we be focusing on today? So that what we're talking about helps ensure that the operators in the restaurant space are ready for those challenges five years from now.

[00:23:15] Lindsay Chervinsky: As many of you know, I am still new to my job as executive director of the George Washington Presidential Library. One of the challenges of any new job is setting expectations for yourself. When you should feel comfortable, when you should feel like you are really doing the job, and when you should start to make changes.

I particularly appreciated Korsmo's thoughts on transitioning to a new leadership position. This is a process that sometimes gets rushed or glossed over in the natural ambitions every leader has to leave their mark, but she emphasized that successfully stepping into a new leadership role is a slow process, that requires a lot of patience, and most importantly, time.

Prior to us starting to record, we were talking about what it means to take on a new job, how to take on those responsibilities, how to think about when you should be like, okay, you know, I have a sense of what's happening and when you should really feel like I have this and when you should feel like the job and the organization is running the way you want it to.

And the timeline we were discussing, which I'd love for you to sort of walk through, is quite different than the government timeline. So that's how I was thinking of a transition there. So for someone who has, or might be thinking about starting a new job or is taking on a lot of responsibilities, how would you encourage them to think about taking on that new role, what they should be learning and when, and what are reasonable benchmarks for them to set for themselves? Both to achieve things, but also to maybe cut themselves some slack about what they might not know yet.

[00:24:44] Michelle Korsmo: So as I respond to this question, I'm going to tell you this is also an answer I probably need to listen to myself because I'm not necessarily very good at this. Having patience.

[00:24:55] Lindsay Chervinsky: Do as you say, not as you do.

[00:24:56] Michelle Korsmo: Yes, exactly. Having patience is hard. And I think that is a tough thing, especially for leaders that want to be out there driving, having patience is hard. But when you're in a new role, it's going to take six months to really understand the lay of the land, to figure out the acronyms, to figure out the players, to learn a little bit about the history, to start to understand the culture of the organization that you've become a part of.

And after that six months, you've got another six months where I think that's figuring out what your job is. What's this job? What do I want this job to be? What do I need this job to be for the role that I have? And so it's a year before you can consider yourself in a position to be good at a job. And I think the higher up you go in an organization, the longer it takes.

Now, the interesting thing is I spend a lot of time working with corporate executives and especially corporate executives from publicly traded companies. The higher up you go, the less time they're given to be able to see changes and results. But they're also looking at a mandate from their shareholders and from their board to come in and make changes.

And so it's easier to go in and make those changes and have an organization understand why you're making those changes if you don't understand what's happening. Because you know everybody in the organization is going to be, I can't believe that they changed this to that because they don't understand the history of how it all got there.

And for the leaders that have the benefit and the privilege of having some time, is you do need to understand how and why an organization's doing what they're doing, but it doesn't mean you have to keep it that way. Just because we've done something in the past doesn't mean we have to keep doing it that way.

[00:26:38] Lindsay Chervinsky: I applaud that notion. I agree. Change is not a bad thing.

[00:26:41] Michelle Korsmo: Change is not a bad thing.

[00:26:43] Lindsay Chervinsky: Change is not always scary.

[00:26:44] Michelle Korsmo: If you're not changing You're dying.

[00:26:47] Lindsay Chervinsky: I love that. It's like, it's like the business version of if sharks stop moving, they die. So

[00:26:52] Michelle Korsmo: Yeah, you gotta keep moving.

[00:26:53] Lindsay Chervinsky: Gotta keep moving. I love that. The last piece that you mentioned, and I want to sort of circle back to it broadly, is you have benefited from learning from a lot of very powerful women leaders.

And I'd love for you to talk about If there are particular challenges you think women leaders face, do they need to approach leadership differently? What does it look like to be a woman in a position of power? I'm just gonna put a quarter in the machine and let you go on that.

[00:27:18] Michelle Korsmo: There's a great joke that a friend of mine, another strong women leader, told me about the man and the woman who both get elected mayor of their town, and they're standing there and they're being sworn in, taking the oath of office.

And the man's standing there and he's saying, today I'm the mayor, tomorrow I'm gonna be governor, next thing you know I'm president of the United States. The woman puts her hand on the Bible, raises her right hand and she's like, I don't know anything about the budget, what am I gonna do about the potholes, the trash collection is never on time, we've got problems, I've gotta study.

And I think that pretty much sums up where women have to think about how they're showing up in their leadership role. You don't actually have to have all of the answers. You don't have to know everything before you can make change and influence direction and outcome. And you have to trust your gut and your instincts that got you to the place where you are now, and understand that the experience that you've had has prepared you for the work that you have in front of you.

And I'm so thankful for all of the past experiences I've had, because if I wouldn't have had those experiences, I wouldn't be ready for the job that I'm in now. And I think that's where everybody needs to show up. So for women in particular, I think it's really understanding that you should be where you are doing that work, and not questioning whether or not you know enough, or you have the right experience, but know that you're in that position for a reason. So go for it.

I also think that women have a real advantage. One of the things that I do a lot is say, I don't understand. I don't understand. Explain that to me. What's this acronym? How does this work? Why did we do it this way? And I actually think it's easier for women to ask those questions than for men to ask those questions for the same reason that the joke is, you know, I'm going to be president of the United States.

Women know that they need to think about all of those details more intuitively. Not to be too specific, obviously, these are generalities and you're going to see differences with women and men across the spectrum. But I think that that's really the advice that I would give to women is you belong where you are for a reason, and go ahead and use that superpower of asking people to explain what's in front of you.

[00:29:36] Lindsay Chervinsky: You talked about showing up and owning your experience and the knowledge that that has given you. Do you think that also should apply to owning your personality? Be who you are. And if that means that you really like pink, then wear pink. If that means that you have a specific sense of humor, then show that sense of humor.

Don't hide the softness. Whatever it is that makes you you, do you think that that is an asset that we should bring to our positions?

[00:30:01] Michelle Korsmo: Always. So, always know that you need to be who you are. And then I would say that you actually have to go back to situational leadership. And think about what is this situation.

So, if you're the kind of person that really likes fuzzy slippers, I would tell you that fuzzy slippers are probably not something that is appropriate in every situation and every environment. And so when you're working from home, fuzzy slippers are great. If you are standing on the stage in front of 500 people giving a speech, fuzzy slippers probably aren't how you're going to want to show up.

But you are going to want to show up in something that's authentic to you. And if you're not authentic, everybody knows it, everybody can tell. So you always have to be yourself. But I don't think that it should be as permissive as, well this is how I like to be, this is what I want. You are doing a job in a role with responsibilities and other people looking to you to set a tone and model a behavior and so that's something that you need to think about when you show up.

[00:31:01] Lindsay Chervinsky: That makes sense. It's a good combination of both personality, but also the situation. And maybe you just leave the fuzzy slippers under your desk for when you're sitting there and the door is closed.

[00:31:10] Michelle Korsmo: Exactly. Which is wonderful.

[00:31:12] Lindsay Chervinsky: There was one last big topic I wanted to discuss. Leading through crisis.

This conversation was inspired by a realization I had when going through Korsmo's CV, and noticing how many industries she led as they were hit by unexpected crises.

You mentioned some big moments that you've thought through, and as I was looking through your leadership positions and when you were in them, if I read this correctly, when you were working in the title insurance, the sort of the real estate world, you had to endure the 2008 recession.

[00:31:44] Michelle Korsmo: Yes.

[00:31:45] Lindsay Chervinsky: And when you were working in the wine and spirits world, you had COVID.

[00:31:48] Michelle Korsmo: Yes.

[00:31:49] Lindsay Chervinsky: Do you feel a little bit cursed? Or maybe we're cursed. And are you predicting any other catastrophes that we should know about? But more seriously, those are some really big things to lead through.

[00:32:01] Michelle Korsmo: Yes.

[00:32:01] Lindsay Chervinsky: And I'm wondering if you could tell us how leading through crisis, and that's really genuinely leading through crisis, what you take away from that.

[00:32:10] Michelle Korsmo: So let me start by saying the future of the restaurant industry is strong. I don't think that

[00:32:16] Lindsay Chervinsky: We're not predicting a crisis.

[00:32:16] Michelle Korsmo: No, no crisis.

[00:32:18] Lindsay Chervinsky: I guess it could have been worse to be at the National Restaurant Association during COVID, because I imagine that people were very fond of wine during COVID.

[00:32:24] Michelle Korsmo: People were very fond of wine during COVID, as we know. And it was an interesting time because how did you get your wine was significant, but you wanted your wine or your spirits. There was a lot happening and it's interesting to think about all of those changes looking back on it. But, you know, it's funny people have said to me.

I started at the National Restaurant Association in the summer of 2022. And they're like, oh, aren't you glad that you didn't have to endure COVID? And my response is, I'm sorry I wasn't there. I'm sorry I wasn't there to help. Because one of the things that I know about trade associations is that they really have an important role to play for industries to help them succeed.

And the work that I was able to do at the American Land Title Association during the housing crisis, and yes, my timing was impeccable. I started four months before the bottom kind of fell out in the real estate market. But the work that we were doing at that time really demonstrated how much of a positive impact the association can have on an industry when the association is that convening space that brings everybody together to talk about how to solve the problems in front of you. And what we did at ALTA was really define the standard for which banks and others should hold title insurance companies accountable.

And that was the question at the time is there was always this question of accountability. And because the title insurance industry was a smaller player in the larger mortgage, real estate transaction space, and one that wasn't necessarily problematic. It wasn't the first focus. And so everybody was coming to it and saying, oh, yes, and we should do something about that, but trying to put a square peg in a round hole.

And so we really took over in that moment and said, all right, we know that more scrutiny, more oversight, more accountability needs to come into our space. How is it that we should set that standard for the title insurance industry that banks, mortgage companies, and regulators can really determine, and consumers, can really determine whether or not we're a strong company doing the right things.

And so the industry created these title insurance and settlement company best practices. And what that did was actually put in place a number of really important best practices, especially around financial controls and cyber controls, right before cybercrime really started to increase. So the companies that were saved because they either knew very soon after wire fraud happened or they were able to prevent it because of the security measures that they put in place, we really did something that allowed businesses to figure out how to protect themselves against bad actors.

And so the association space really has that power to come in and help in moments of crisis. And to the question of, is it everywhere I go, there seems to be a moment of crisis? The other thing I would say for leaders who are listening to this podcast, thinking about what does it mean to be a leader? What are those leadership lessons? There are moments in time where you could probably not do anything and go on and everything would be okay. But you've missed an opportunity. You've missed an opportunity to make a difference and make something better. And so, what I would say is, in these moments, in these roles, it's our obligation to be paying attention to those moments when you have the chance to stand up and change direction and make those changes that strengthen an industry.

Make people smarter about the outside forces that are impacting their business, make them smarter about how business is going to change and the threats that they're going to have to face in the upcoming years so they can prepare for that.

[00:36:10] Lindsay Chervinsky: I might call that a opportunity mindset of, there are always going to be crises, there are always going to be things that go wrong, but I think how you approached it and how you described approaching it as a way to both help the people that it's your job to help, but also to demonstrate your value or your organization's value in those moments of crisis is so important, because you could definitely have a woe is me mindset in these moments, but if you instead see it as an opportunity to create something better, that really, long term both serves your interests, but also your constituents or your customers interests much better.

[00:36:43] Michelle Korsmo: Yeah, it does. It's also interesting as I think about the opportunity mindset. The other thing that's important to do is to know when to not overreact And

[00:36:52] Lindsay Chervinsky: Restraint. Restraint is something we talk about all the time with presidents.

[00:36:55] Michelle Korsmo: Where is-- strategic patience, I think is also the other conversation point And that's an interesting balance.

Do we do something in this moment or do we not? Do we get worked up or do we stay calm and see what happens? And usually staying calm, giving everything a moment or two to see how it shakes out works. But this is the thing about more time and experience is you just get better at knowing how to respond to those moments because you've seen it before. And so you're better able to recognize the moments where you need to take action and do so quickly, and the moments where you know you've got some time to wait and see how everything shakes out and not to get too worked up.

[00:37:36] Lindsay Chervinsky: To circle back to the beginning of our conversation about self awareness, probably could work myself on the patience piece. So I will make a note of that for my own self development.

[00:37:45] Michelle Korsmo: Strategic patience.

[00:37:47] Lindsay Chervinsky: Yes.

[00:37:47] Michelle Korsmo: Strategic patience.

[00:37:48] Lindsay Chervinsky: So now for our traditional last question, which is something that sounds like you have reflected a lot on, so this will not come as a surprise, but when you think about George Washington and leadership, what do you think of?

[00:37:59] Michelle Korsmo: Always I think of George Washington as the indispensable man. I think that when we think about how important his mindset and temperament was to establishing what it meant to be an American, boy, we got lucky, right?

[00:38:14] Lindsay Chervinsky: Mm hmm.

[00:38:15] Michelle Korsmo: We really got lucky that there was somebody as humble, as dedicated, as smart, as courageous, as friendly as the General.

I mean, really, the indispensable man.

[00:38:27] Lindsay Chervinsky: I often think that nothing is ever inevitable with history, but there is an element of fate that is required for things to work out, and that's one of those moments that I think fate plays a role.

[00:38:37] Michelle Korsmo: That's always an interesting question about whether or not it's fate and if it's inevitable, and I think it's not.

[00:38:45] Lindsay Chervinsky: I agree. I think nothing is inevitable in history, but I do think there are moments when it feels like fate maybe puts its thumb on the scale. With Washington, I always think about, he was the third son. He should have been a nobody.

[00:38:57] Michelle Korsmo: Nobody.

[00:38:57] Lindsay Chervinsky: A footnote in history.

[00:38:59] Michelle Korsmo: No money.

[00:38:59] Lindsay Chervinsky: No money. No schooling.

[00:39:00] Michelle Korsmo: No prospects.

[00:39:00] Lindsay Chervinsky: Yeah.

[00:39:02] Michelle Korsmo: No great wife.

[00:39:03] Lindsay Chervinsky: Exactly. Only because of some heroic action on his part, knowing how to network like the best of them. But also then the deaths of his brothers helped. And so that's where sometimes I just occasionally feel like you can kind of see fate putting its thumb on a scale a little bit.

[00:39:18] Michelle Korsmo: And he worked to get into the right place at the right time.

[00:39:22] Lindsay Chervinsky: Yes.

[00:39:23] Michelle Korsmo: I mean, I always love the story about George Washington showing up in his uniform. Oh, we need a general, anybody? What about the tall guy over there?

[00:39:30] Lindsay Chervinsky: Oh, I just happened to be wearing this very nicely tailored, perfectly fitting uniform, just in case you forgot I had leadership experience in the military.

[00:39:38] Michelle Korsmo: Right, and I'm tall and good looking, and

[00:39:40] Lindsay Chervinsky: Yes, I totally agree. It's interesting because as we've been talking about fate and luck and these things, it's that, quote, luck is opportunity meets preparation, and he knew how to prepare so that when the opportunity struck, he was ready for it.

[00:39:54] Michelle Korsmo: Luck shows up for those who work hard.

[00:39:56] Lindsay Chervinsky: Yes, absolutely.

Well, thank you so much for this conversation. This was so fun.

[00:40:00] Michelle Korsmo: This has been a pleasure.

[00:40:01] Lindsay Chervinsky: And I learned so much from you, and we are always happy to have you at Mount Vernon.

[00:40:04] Michelle Korsmo: It's so nice to be here. Thank you, Lindsay.

[00:40:07] Lindsay Chervinsky: Thank you for joining us this week on Leadership and Legacy. And thank you so much again to our guest, Michelle Korsmo.

I'm your host, Dr. Lindsay Chervinsky.

Leadership and Legacy: Conversations at the George Washington Presidential Library is a production of the Mount Vernon Ladies' Association and Primary Source Media.

In the spirit of George Washington's leadership, we feature the perspectives of leaders from across industries and fields.

As such, the thoughts expressed in this podcast are solely the views of our guests and do not reflect the opinions of the Mount Vernon Ladies' Association. To learn more about Washington's leadership example, or to find out how you can bring your team to the George Washington Presidential Library, go to GW leadership institute.org or to find more great podcasts from Mount Vernon, go to George Washington podcast.com.

Check out the work of Primary Source media at primarysourcemedia.com. Join us in two weeks for our next great conversation.